Well, one more stab at this before the year is done...

I'm going to try to diagnose my issues with the T-Bird one last time before the year is done. The weekend after Halloween, Its being put up for the winter.

I've gone through about 1,000 posts over at Turboford.org looking for people with the same basic combo I have, and the some of the same issues. Just for comparison, this is a dyno sheet from someone with a combo pretty close to my own. He has a Motorsport roller cam in his 2.3, and My Boport 1.5 is a bit better for power production than his. Overall though, his combo is pretty damn close. Same electronics, fuel system, and stock timing curve. His car at the time was only tuned with fuel pressure, ignition timing, and 20 PSI of boost.




THAT is what my graph should look like, with similar power and torque.

Now, I think my next course of action is to perform a leakdown test. My compression numbers were good across the board, but if I have a valve that isnt sealing right I really don't know if a simple compression test would show that (unless it was REALLY hung open). If I find out that its hissing somewhere (exhaust or intake) i'll end up pulling the head over the winter to see what I'm dealing with. It's almost certainly cracked (Induction hardened ex. seats FTL) but hopefully the cracks are small and able to be milled out for actual hardened seats. If they are able to be taken out with a seat install, I'll step up to large valves at that time as well, since they aren't hardly more expensive than the standard sized ones.

If the cracks are too big, or if the head isn't going to seal after seats are installed, I don't know what to do. I know I can buy a complete big valve ported performance head for $1750.00, and all I'd need to buy is a set of valves for it.

http://www.bo-port.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=2

OR....... I could call it quits of this car and part it out. If I did this, I'd be looking for a non airbag fox, with ZERO modification done to it. I can re-use all my tubular suspension stuff on it, and parting out the 2.3 and all the performance parts should net me enough to get started on a 5.0 car. (also, with a bit of saving my pennies) Granted, it might be a slow turd for the time being, but I'm not quite sure I want to spend almost 2 grand on a new head setup for the T-bird. I know I could get into a decent no-rust Fox stang with a reasonable amount of miles on it for 5-7K.


I guess it all depends on:

1. What a leakdown test shows me
2. If the leakdown is bad, what pulling the head shows me
3. If the head is unusable, IF i could find a good head at a decent price......


It's very disappointing that my car isn't putting the numbers down that it should, or even relatively close. I love the car to death, but after all the frustration that its caused me, its just not fun anymore.


BTW, anybody think valve leakage could cause the issues i'm dealing with?

And don't worry, i won't be posting "My car is fucking broke" threads all winter since I won't have to look at the fucking thing......

A leak down test is designed to diagnose a low compression issue. Typically, if you have low compression you use the pressure in the leak down test scenario to find out where the pressure (simulated compression) is going.

Coming out of the valve cover breather = bad ring sealing
Coming out of the exhaust = bad exhaust valve sealing
Coming out of the throttle body or carb = bad intake valve sealing

If you have good compression I doubt a leak down will find out much for you. But go for it, it doesn't hurt to find out more information about your setup.

Now since I haven't really been following what is the basic problem? Have you tried taking it to Bob Kurgan? That guy knows his Fords.

I agree with crackedhead.
Although I have seen motors compression test fine with a cracked piston or missing ring lands.
The leak down never lies.

also, during your leakdown test, take your rad cap off. If it bubbles in there you have a bad head gasket/ craked head

I am sure something is wrong with your car but sometimes comparing your set up to somone else even if they are exactly the same doesn't do much at all... Some people will run amazing while someone else's car will horrible even with the same set up.

kp116 wrote:

sometimes comparing your set up to somone else even if they are exactly the same doesn't do much at all... Some people will run amazing while someone else's car will horrible even with the same set up.

Quoted for the truth!

plus that is a dynojet and nate has a mustang dyno huge difference..... why can't you just tune the car and not worry about the hp it makes? i never cared what the hp was on the vette the three times it was on the dyno i wanted to tune it and the power falls where it is. the other thing i never got are these things..... when you were having all the issues you said you did a compression test if that was fine don't waste your time with another one...... People talk about boost leaks if your making 15 psi i don't care if you have a small leak 15 psi is 15 psi.

get it on the rollers and get it tuned at whatever psi and have fun if some one is making 20hp more who cares. numbers can not be compaired. hell my vette on nates dyno made 370WHP dwights cobra made like 460 walk him....

brngrhd wrote:

why can't you just tune the car and not worry about the hp it makes?

Exactly! Cause some people like the bragging rights to say it makes XXX to the wheels! I dont care if it makes 300 to the tire or 500 to the tire. All I care about is what it runs in the 1320!

There are two lakes surrounding this town, I'm sure even you can manage to drive that thing into one of them.

^^ LOL. There are more then 2!

Peter MS3 wrote:

There are two lakes surrounding this town, I'm sure even you can manage to drive that thing into one of them.

Oh Snap!!!

So I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but whats wrong with the car? Symptoms?

Or did you just make this thread for attention?

Well, The car runs great when I keep it out of boost. I can cruise all day long without any hiccups at all. When I get under heavy load under boost it starts making power and just falls off like i lifted..... and it keeps doing that repeatedly no matter what RPM or boost I run. I re-set the MBC back to a factory 15 PSI, and it didnt feel any slower than it was at 20. I can see it go PIG RICH at boost onset and it stays in the low 10's until about 4K and starts to get back to the 11's.... but its still not making near what it should for power even when the AFR is right. With everything that I've checked so far (Signal returns, grounds, every sensor, checked for boost leaks, fuel pressure, spark strength timing ect ect..) ..... it has to be something that I've not changed out yet or tested.

I know my compression numbers are good, but from what Ive been reading, A simple compression test won't always tell me if my valves are sealing like they should. I need to get ahold of a leakdown tester to really tell what is going on. At this point, I'm guessing I have some decent leakage on the exhaust valves, and possibly the intake side as well. If thats the case, I need to pull the head this winter.

I didnt just make this thread for attention... I really want to figure this out. I'm really tired of this thing being a complete turd. I know that there are going to be some variables even with the exact same mods but there should not be such a HUGE difference like I'm seeing.

Since I'm not seeing a noticeable power increase between 15 and 20 PSI, that tells me that for some reason the cylinders are not getting (or keeping) the pressure that they should..... and since I have 0 boost leaks, it has to be an internal problem. It still boosts to 20 and holds steady. I was also thinking that the super rich condition is because the fuel pressure is increasing 1 for 1 with every PSI like it should.... ut if that air isnt staying in the cylinders, its not going to be able to burn that fuel any where near efficient. I guess the leakdown will tell me the story on that theory though..... I just need to find someone with a tester that knows what they are doing before I store it. That way, I can spend the winter pulling the head (if need be) and either rebuilding it or replacing it.

If its not a head issue, the only thing left is the tune... so i know what I need to do there.

408 4 Eye wrote:

brngrhd wrote:

why can't you just tune the car and not worry about the hp it makes?

Exactly! Cause some people like the bragging rights to say it makes XXX to the wheels! I dont care if it makes 300 to the tire or 500 to the tire. All I care about is what it runs in the 1320!

I agree with both of you.... I'm not out to make GOBS of power, I just want a relatively quick street car that I can have fun with at the track. I could care less if I make XXX more HP or torque than someone else. If you care what it runs in the 1320, than you pretty much by default have to care what it makes for power..... My goals for this year were pretty low..... 300 at the crank with mid-300's torque. This SHOULD be completely possible and very easy to accomplish with the modifications done to the car. Many many others have done less and got much more out of it, on a stock tune, fuel system, and air meter. Next spring was supposed to be a proper way to tune the car (Megasquirt), large injectors, and around 24-26 PSI. That should have netted me near 400 or so at the wheels with a good tune.... the limiting factor at that point being the .60/.63 T3 turbo. After that... I'd have to step up to a larger precision unit or a larger Holset.

just a ? what valve springs are you running? how old?

Valve springs are..... I think about 3 months or so old.

Here is a direct link to the springs I have:

http://www.bo-port.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=37

I DID have an issue with weak springs before I swapped them.... they were weak enough to let the lash adjusters pump up and hang the valves under high RPMs and kill the motor. Swapping the springs solved that issue immediately.

Just for reference, here is the link to my cam:

http://www.bo-port.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=6


*edit* I just wanted to make sure for those who do not know..... The Ford 2.3T engine is a Non-interference motor, so the valves have no way of contacting the pistons......... Just in case someone suggests I bent a valve when the valves hung due to weak springs

110# should be enough, but i would call the cam comp and ask them if they think you may be blowing the valve open under boost,i have done this as others have, and it will act as yours does (falls flat and goes rich) just something to check maybe it the problem and maybe not.

Well, its something else I can check.....so thanks. I'm really running out of ideas, so anything additional helps.

see and to me 110 is a little light id like to see 130 on an N/A application with boost a little more. you have NEVER blown a valve open think about the pressures here..... 110PSI against even 20PSI what you get is valve bounce or float at lower RPM's then the N/A counterpart more preressure is the cure for that..... not saying that is the case but if it were me and your not going to coil bind id stack a little more shim under that spring to up the seat pressure a little.

well not the best term(blow the valve open) more like taking 20# off the seat under boost so now your 110# is 90# some use the term blowing the valve open or hold the valve open ,float


as steve put it you could pull a spring and test it at the install height and then add some shim and see what you can safely go to before bind, i would call the cam maker and ask them their thoughts.

yes call the cam maker and make sure they know what your doing not just the cam.

I'm going to call the cam grinder tomorrow and ask some questions.

i ran a 110# spring in my GTP at 14psi and it worked great. 6400rpms and a 510ish lift cam. what do you rev it to? how much timing do you run? what are the cam specs? turbo specs? give me some info.

Realistically, rev to about 6200 max, Cam specs.... He doesn't provide cam cards, but the cam has a .436 lift measured at the valve, and is a reduced base circle design. (BTW, because it is a reduced base circle, we had to shim the lash adjusters UP... the grinder provided shims. We measured the gaps after shimming them according to his instructions and they were right at .048... in other words right on the money.)

Ignition timing is still computer controlled, but is currently set at factory (*10 BTDC Spout out) and advances to where it should at idle, set in premium mode, the LA3 computer only maxes around 18* total timing at highest load vs highest rpm. Turbo is a larger than stock turbo (but still a turbo that came on the 2.3T from an earlier year) Its a Garrett T-3 .60/.63 internally wastegated.

All of these mods are very common in the 2.3T world.

was that other dyno graph you posted with the same turbo as yours?